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	<title>Comments on: Charles Burns&#8217;s Hubris</title>
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	<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/</link>
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		<title>By: wax lion</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3063</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wax lion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3063</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I get your point. Maybe it&#039;s an issue of semantics. It should be Best American Comix or Best American Indie Comics, then.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get your point. Maybe it&#8217;s an issue of semantics. It should be Best American Comix or Best American Indie Comics, then.</p>
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		<title>By: magick mike</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3062</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[magick mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3062</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(using my own lexicon here)

I agree with the first paragraph here, but my point is more that even if comix are influenced historically by comics, why can&#039;t there be an outlet for only comix?  There are a million places to find comics everywhere you go.  There aren&#039;t a million places to find comix everywhere you go.  If the one virtue of the BAC series are that they&#039;re giving a wider range of exposure to nonsuperherocomics, why should we take away space from the unknowns and fill it up with superheros that you can already get everywhere?  I mean, it&#039;s not like we all live in Hicksville (I wish).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(using my own lexicon here)</p>
<p>I agree with the first paragraph here, but my point is more that even if comix are influenced historically by comics, why can&#8217;t there be an outlet for only comix?  There are a million places to find comics everywhere you go.  There aren&#8217;t a million places to find comix everywhere you go.  If the one virtue of the BAC series are that they&#8217;re giving a wider range of exposure to nonsuperherocomics, why should we take away space from the unknowns and fill it up with superheros that you can already get everywhere?  I mean, it&#8217;s not like we all live in Hicksville (I wish).</p>
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		<title>By: wax lion</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3055</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wax lion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3055</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Obviously there&#039;s a big difference between &quot;HULK SMASH!&quot; and something like Molotiu&#039;s abstract anthology, but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s fair to say that comics and comix have nothing to do with each other. You&#039;d be surprised how many mainstream writers are well versed in the comix scene. And while I doubt that most comix-style cartoonists keep up with the latest Marvel and DC crossover events, a great deal of them are obviously influenced by and express a lot of reverence for artists like Kirby, Ditko, Decarlo, etc., as well as mainstream, non-superhero cartoonists John Stanley and George Herriman. Seriously, how could Love and Rockets or Eightball exist without Fantastic Four and Archie Comics? Where would Crumb be without EC Comics and Mad Magazine?

In my mind I&#039;ve always separated contemporary &quot;serious&quot; comics (or comix) into two categories: those clearly influenced by (and responding to) the history of mainstream comics (Burns, Clowes, Los Bros, etc.) and those existing outside of a strictly comics sphere of influence, adopting more of their narrative and visual techniques from film and graphic design--as well as other comics that follow such traditions--like Molotiu and other people whose names I don&#039;t know, because personally that subgenre of comics doesn&#039;t really interest me. Chris Ware is an example of someone who maybe straddles the line. As I said, my tastes incline much more toward the former.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously there&#8217;s a big difference between &#8220;HULK SMASH!&#8221; and something like Molotiu&#8217;s abstract anthology, but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to say that comics and comix have nothing to do with each other. You&#8217;d be surprised how many mainstream writers are well versed in the comix scene. And while I doubt that most comix-style cartoonists keep up with the latest Marvel and DC crossover events, a great deal of them are obviously influenced by and express a lot of reverence for artists like Kirby, Ditko, Decarlo, etc., as well as mainstream, non-superhero cartoonists John Stanley and George Herriman. Seriously, how could Love and Rockets or Eightball exist without Fantastic Four and Archie Comics? Where would Crumb be without EC Comics and Mad Magazine?</p>
<p>In my mind I&#8217;ve always separated contemporary &#8220;serious&#8221; comics (or comix) into two categories: those clearly influenced by (and responding to) the history of mainstream comics (Burns, Clowes, Los Bros, etc.) and those existing outside of a strictly comics sphere of influence, adopting more of their narrative and visual techniques from film and graphic design&#8211;as well as other comics that follow such traditions&#8211;like Molotiu and other people whose names I don&#8217;t know, because personally that subgenre of comics doesn&#8217;t really interest me. Chris Ware is an example of someone who maybe straddles the line. As I said, my tastes incline much more toward the former.</p>
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		<title>By: wax lion</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3049</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wax lion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3049</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, I think I remember reading somwhere that Lynda Barry wanted to include some Batman thing when she edited BAC, but DC wanted too much to license it. Still, I&#039;m pretty sure that that was the only instance of a BAC editor soliciting mainstream work.

I guess one could make the argument that BASS rarely includes sci-fi/fantasy works, but I don&#039;t really buy it. It just emphasizes how ridiculous it is to have an anthology that allegedly encompasses an entire MEDIUM rather than a genre.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I think I remember reading somwhere that Lynda Barry wanted to include some Batman thing when she edited BAC, but DC wanted too much to license it. Still, I&#8217;m pretty sure that that was the only instance of a BAC editor soliciting mainstream work.</p>
<p>I guess one could make the argument that BASS rarely includes sci-fi/fantasy works, but I don&#8217;t really buy it. It just emphasizes how ridiculous it is to have an anthology that allegedly encompasses an entire MEDIUM rather than a genre.</p>
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		<title>By: magick mike</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3011</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[magick mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3011</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, I should also comment that yeah, Molotiu&#039;s book &amp; that issue of Action, Yes killed ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I should also comment that yeah, Molotiu&#8217;s book &amp; that issue of Action, Yes killed ;)</p>
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		<title>By: magick mike</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3010</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[magick mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I can recognize that there is great stuff within the realm of superhero comics, and I can recognize that the importance of page composition on reading runs across the entire medium, I still think there&#039;s a remarkable difference between Marvel/DC/Vertigo &amp; it&#039;s ilk and Fantagraphics/D&amp;Q/PictureBox no matter how you refer to it.  The terms I prefer to use are little more than quick signifiers to differentiate (obviously).  

For example, and perhaps this is a wholly personal bias that I should seek to remedy, but my experience with &quot;superhero comics&quot; has done absolutely nothing for me, so if, for instance, I were to have picked up a BAC anthology when I was in High School (they didn&#039;t exist then, but hypothetically) &amp; flipped through it only to find that it was half filled with superheros, I would undoubtedly have set the anthology down.  My aversion to superheros has more to do with machismo and ideas of power &amp; control (and imperialism etc.) than anything related to talent or innovation as an illustrator, author, or designer.  When I refer to a divide, it is a more thematic or ideological divide, it&#039;s a shortcut.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I can recognize that there is great stuff within the realm of superhero comics, and I can recognize that the importance of page composition on reading runs across the entire medium, I still think there&#8217;s a remarkable difference between Marvel/DC/Vertigo &amp; it&#8217;s ilk and Fantagraphics/D&amp;Q/PictureBox no matter how you refer to it.  The terms I prefer to use are little more than quick signifiers to differentiate (obviously).  </p>
<p>For example, and perhaps this is a wholly personal bias that I should seek to remedy, but my experience with &#8220;superhero comics&#8221; has done absolutely nothing for me, so if, for instance, I were to have picked up a BAC anthology when I was in High School (they didn&#8217;t exist then, but hypothetically) &amp; flipped through it only to find that it was half filled with superheros, I would undoubtedly have set the anthology down.  My aversion to superheros has more to do with machismo and ideas of power &amp; control (and imperialism etc.) than anything related to talent or innovation as an illustrator, author, or designer.  When I refer to a divide, it is a more thematic or ideological divide, it&#8217;s a shortcut.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dermot Woods</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3009</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Dermot Woods]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3009</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hope your explanation of Burns&#039;s thinking is correct, Jac, because it seems fair. But, I&#039;m still not sure I that acknowlegement of what&#039;s out there in his words. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope your explanation of Burns&#8217;s thinking is correct, Jac, because it seems fair. But, I&#8217;m still not sure I that acknowlegement of what&#8217;s out there in his words.</p>
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		<title>By: Jac</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3006</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jac]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3006</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Looks like I&#039;m coming a little late to this conversation, but I have some opinions I&#039;d like to share.

My opinion of BA anthologies in general is not high in the respect that I don&#039;t find them fascinating to read now, BUT I think they are a jumping off point and that they can be eye-opening.  I&#039;d like to believe I&#039;m not being pompous when I assume that the general public is not aware of most of the people included in any of their anthologies, but perhaps most aware of the person they choose to edit each yearly collection.  Alice Sebold is the editor of this year&#039;s BA Short Stories, for god&#039;s sake.  Has anyone ever read a short story by Alice Sebold?  Nope.  They don&#039;t exist.  (I&#039;m, of course, writing hyperbolically - as I&#039;m sure she&#039;s written and published short fiction, but am pretty sure no one who&#039;s serious about short fiction as a form really cares, and I certainly don&#039;t, not even enough to take the time to see if it exists).

In this series, I think the editor functions as the eye-catcher to a pretty wide audience, in the hopes that more people will pick up the book and expand their horizons.  I know that&#039;s how Best American Non-Required Reading worked for me.  I was a freshman or so in college and I saw that that guy I liked, Dave Eggers, edited a collection of stuff he liked to read, and then I fell down the rabbit holes of George Saunders and Zyzzyva and Adrian Tomine.  

I guess the point I&#039;m trying to make is that these series might not be as much for people who are knee-deep in culture/ counter-culture (which seems to be fast-becoming, if not already, popular culture), as it is for people who still hear &#039;comics&#039; and think &quot;X-Men&quot; or possibly, the more enlightened ones, &quot;Persepolis.&quot;  And it&#039;s possible that these collections work in a similar way to the Grammy&#039;s, (though I think BA is a few steps up from them) where I would be flabbergasted if anyone I knew who called themselves real music followers agreed that Taylor Swift had the best album of the year.  

When I hear Charles Burns say, &quot;For the most part, the artists in this book were already well known to me-that’s just the way it works; these days, if you’re a reasonably talented cartoonist, it’s hard to stay under the radar for long,&quot; I hear him apologizing in a way.  His job wasn&#039;t to pick the up and comers, the people who were pretty awesome but still getting their sea-legs.  His job was to pick the best.  And he&#039;s probably been buddies with most of the people in this collection for forever, and he&#039;s probably sorry to all of the little proteges who he wishes he could have included but who aren&#039;t the launchpads he&#039;s looking for, who are two or three steps down the line.  Maybe Charles Burns is smart enough to know that you need to read Art Spiegelman and Gilbert Hernandez and Chris Ware to orient yourself before you can appreciate the worlds of Grant Reynolds and Jeremy Tinder and Corinne Mucha.  And maybe he&#039;s also responding to the fact that when he started, his books had to sit next to Superman and, maybe if the bookstore was forward thinking, Sandman, and that was only if there was that one geeky guy on staff who was weirded out and charmed by a dude who buries bones in &quot;Dog Days&quot; or the religious fanaticism of &quot;Burn Again&quot; and snuck those titles into the weekly order.  

Pretty sure it&#039;s easier for comics artists now no matter how you cut it.  Most bookstore have more &quot;graphic novels&quot; than they do comics anymore, for sure.  And there&#039;s a lot more design/ side-work available seeking a comic-aesthetic, rather than cartoon.

Charles Burns knows what he&#039;s doing, and he knows what he was asked to do as an editor.  He&#039;s explaining where he&#039;s coming from.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like I&#8217;m coming a little late to this conversation, but I have some opinions I&#8217;d like to share.</p>
<p>My opinion of BA anthologies in general is not high in the respect that I don&#8217;t find them fascinating to read now, BUT I think they are a jumping off point and that they can be eye-opening.  I&#8217;d like to believe I&#8217;m not being pompous when I assume that the general public is not aware of most of the people included in any of their anthologies, but perhaps most aware of the person they choose to edit each yearly collection.  Alice Sebold is the editor of this year&#8217;s BA Short Stories, for god&#8217;s sake.  Has anyone ever read a short story by Alice Sebold?  Nope.  They don&#8217;t exist.  (I&#8217;m, of course, writing hyperbolically &#8211; as I&#8217;m sure she&#8217;s written and published short fiction, but am pretty sure no one who&#8217;s serious about short fiction as a form really cares, and I certainly don&#8217;t, not even enough to take the time to see if it exists).</p>
<p>In this series, I think the editor functions as the eye-catcher to a pretty wide audience, in the hopes that more people will pick up the book and expand their horizons.  I know that&#8217;s how Best American Non-Required Reading worked for me.  I was a freshman or so in college and I saw that that guy I liked, Dave Eggers, edited a collection of stuff he liked to read, and then I fell down the rabbit holes of George Saunders and Zyzzyva and Adrian Tomine.  </p>
<p>I guess the point I&#8217;m trying to make is that these series might not be as much for people who are knee-deep in culture/ counter-culture (which seems to be fast-becoming, if not already, popular culture), as it is for people who still hear &#8216;comics&#8217; and think &#8220;X-Men&#8221; or possibly, the more enlightened ones, &#8220;Persepolis.&#8221;  And it&#8217;s possible that these collections work in a similar way to the Grammy&#8217;s, (though I think BA is a few steps up from them) where I would be flabbergasted if anyone I knew who called themselves real music followers agreed that Taylor Swift had the best album of the year.  </p>
<p>When I hear Charles Burns say, &#8220;For the most part, the artists in this book were already well known to me-that’s just the way it works; these days, if you’re a reasonably talented cartoonist, it’s hard to stay under the radar for long,&#8221; I hear him apologizing in a way.  His job wasn&#8217;t to pick the up and comers, the people who were pretty awesome but still getting their sea-legs.  His job was to pick the best.  And he&#8217;s probably been buddies with most of the people in this collection for forever, and he&#8217;s probably sorry to all of the little proteges who he wishes he could have included but who aren&#8217;t the launchpads he&#8217;s looking for, who are two or three steps down the line.  Maybe Charles Burns is smart enough to know that you need to read Art Spiegelman and Gilbert Hernandez and Chris Ware to orient yourself before you can appreciate the worlds of Grant Reynolds and Jeremy Tinder and Corinne Mucha.  And maybe he&#8217;s also responding to the fact that when he started, his books had to sit next to Superman and, maybe if the bookstore was forward thinking, Sandman, and that was only if there was that one geeky guy on staff who was weirded out and charmed by a dude who buries bones in &#8220;Dog Days&#8221; or the religious fanaticism of &#8220;Burn Again&#8221; and snuck those titles into the weekly order.  </p>
<p>Pretty sure it&#8217;s easier for comics artists now no matter how you cut it.  Most bookstore have more &#8220;graphic novels&#8221; than they do comics anymore, for sure.  And there&#8217;s a lot more design/ side-work available seeking a comic-aesthetic, rather than cartoon.</p>
<p>Charles Burns knows what he&#8217;s doing, and he knows what he was asked to do as an editor.  He&#8217;s explaining where he&#8217;s coming from.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dermot Woods</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3004</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Dermot Woods]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Andrei Molotiu&#039;s book should do a lot to help push things in that dirrection, Mike. I&#039;m guessing we&#039;ll see some abstract stuff in the next edition. (By the way, we featured a whole section of abstract comics in the last issue of Action,Yes.) 

Not sure if I see the usefulness of the comics/comix distinction. Maybe it&#039;s because, as a comics artist, I spend a lot time focusing on page composition when reading, and I think, for instance, there&#039;s a lot of similarity between what Jack Kirby did and some of the work in Molotiu&#039;s anthology. I think the similarity of compositional technique breaks down any barrier that might have been established by commercial dissemination or even cultural history. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Andrei Molotiu&#8217;s book should do a lot to help push things in that dirrection, Mike. I&#8217;m guessing we&#8217;ll see some abstract stuff in the next edition. (By the way, we featured a whole section of abstract comics in the last issue of Action,Yes.) </p>
<p>Not sure if I see the usefulness of the comics/comix distinction. Maybe it&#8217;s because, as a comics artist, I spend a lot time focusing on page composition when reading, and I think, for instance, there&#8217;s a lot of similarity between what Jack Kirby did and some of the work in Molotiu&#8217;s anthology. I think the similarity of compositional technique breaks down any barrier that might have been established by commercial dissemination or even cultural history.</p>
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		<title>By: magick mike</title>
		<link>http://bigother.com/2010/01/12/charles-burnss-hubris/#comment-3003</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[magick mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bigother.com/?p=3009#comment-3003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;mma agree with Wax Lion--
BAC is pretty bland.  It&#039;s a good tool for getting exposed to certain artists, and it was certainly helpful to me in it&#039;s early days when I was just getting into comix, but for someone who reads comix regularly there&#039;s not much to offer there (this year was the first year I realized that everything I liked in the anthology I had already formerly read).  While BAC may sell &amp; &quot;influence&quot; at Borders and Barnes &amp; Noble, I think that anthologies like Kramers Ergot &amp; stuff I mentioned above (PictureBox 4 ever) are actually far more influential across  the entire comix world (indy &amp; completely self-published underground) (though Burns&#039;s editorial choices finally cross over into that, albeit to a limited degree) than BAC as a series is going to be.

Also, I&#039;ve also considered a pretty striking degree of difference between comix &amp; comics.  Marvel, DC, and Vertigo would fall into the latter, whereas Fantagraphics, Drawn &amp; Quarterly, and PictureBox would fall into the former.  Neither is inherently better than the other, but they&#039;re completely different &quot;things&quot; that just happen to be using similar methods (though in many cases the only similarities is that there are illustrations in both), and to combine them would be really too vague of a field.  I&#039;d rather the BAC series started taking on abstract comix than superhero comics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;mma agree with Wax Lion&#8211;<br />
BAC is pretty bland.  It&#8217;s a good tool for getting exposed to certain artists, and it was certainly helpful to me in it&#8217;s early days when I was just getting into comix, but for someone who reads comix regularly there&#8217;s not much to offer there (this year was the first year I realized that everything I liked in the anthology I had already formerly read).  While BAC may sell &amp; &#8220;influence&#8221; at Borders and Barnes &amp; Noble, I think that anthologies like Kramers Ergot &amp; stuff I mentioned above (PictureBox 4 ever) are actually far more influential across  the entire comix world (indy &amp; completely self-published underground) (though Burns&#8217;s editorial choices finally cross over into that, albeit to a limited degree) than BAC as a series is going to be.</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;ve also considered a pretty striking degree of difference between comix &amp; comics.  Marvel, DC, and Vertigo would fall into the latter, whereas Fantagraphics, Drawn &amp; Quarterly, and PictureBox would fall into the former.  Neither is inherently better than the other, but they&#8217;re completely different &#8220;things&#8221; that just happen to be using similar methods (though in many cases the only similarities is that there are illustrations in both), and to combine them would be really too vague of a field.  I&#8217;d rather the BAC series started taking on abstract comix than superhero comics.</p>
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